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Home >Comments and Articles > Network 21
On June 3, 2004, I received the following email:
Hi there,
I stumbled across your website while researching Network 21 in Australia. I notice well assume because it is linked on your website there is some objection to it. I am not personally involved with them but looking into them after a mate told me he is getting into it. If you could please e-mail me back with a brief description of why you do not like them it would be greatly appreciated.
thank you
Paul
Network 21 is one of the "motivational organisations" for Amway. My experience with their distributors is that they turn up for the plan showing with a professional salesman from Network 21 who runs the presentation. Any questions about Amway are answered with lies. I was told several times in the last session I endured that they had a casual relationship with Amway (the words used were "Amway is one of our suppliers") but the real link was continually denied. This is symmetrical with the way that Amway employees lie about their knowledge of the motivational organisations like Network 21 and International Dreambuilders. On one memorable occasion I was being fed the usual crap and I was asked if I understood the term "paradigm shift". I actually spent some time at university studying the philosophy of science, so I asked the spruiker if he was referring to what Thomas Kuhn had written in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions and then launched into a fifteen minute lecture on the subject. The salesman simply put his brain on "pause" and when I finished he just started up again mid-sentence. Robotic.
Someone didn't like what I said.
From: "Alison Kershaw"
Subject: Network21/Amway connection
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:42:59 +1000
Hi,
Nice website, but you really do invalidate the people that have sussed it out for themselves, have all the facts, have no problem with the fact that Amway is the distibutor/supplier/wholesaler of goods and think its a pretty good idea. Fine to have your opinion but why don't you encourage people to do their own research and not just rely on your opionion? Your critique of Network 21 is not accurate and I encourage you to speak to some one in the company that is not an Amway IBO for the full picture. Perhaps you would not be so scathing about it if you do so.
Cheers,
A Kershaw.
I am very impressed by people who "have sussed it out for themselves, have all the facts, ... and think its a pretty good idea". Every Amway "IBO" (or Network 21 salesperson denying the Amway connection) who has ever shown me the plan has told me that it is a simple matter to sign up five people in a month. If you joined up on January 1, 2004, you should now have 19,530 people in your downline. That is the lowest estimate and depends on "IBOs" only ever signing up five people each, not five each month. (It would be 38,880 if everyone was pulling their weight each month.) If you do not have at least this number in your downline then you are a pathetic loser and are obviously suffering from some really stinkin' thinkin'. You should go back to your day J.O.B. If you have achieved this easy target that any committed and motivated "IBO" can reach, your only concern will come in November. By then you will have more than 12 million in your downline and there are simply not enough people living in Australia to find the almost 50 million needed for the October recruits to meet their five-each targets for the next month.
I am intrigued by your idea that it is somehow improper to warn people about possible problems with a potential activity, but that instead people should learn only from their own experience. Do you extend this philosophy to such things as health warnings about the dangers of tobacco, asbestos and unsafe sexual practices, warning labels on packages with poisonous contents, seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws, advice about drinking and driving, and teaching young children about hot stoves, stranger danger and how to cross roads safely? Should people only learn from personal experience, or is it occasionally acceptable to learn from the experience and advice of others? I must say that while I have long observed immorality among big pins and pyramid operators, it is rare to see someone come out and openly suggest amorality.
You suggest that I talk to "some one in the company that is not an Amway IBO". I have done this on several occasions, and almost invariably I have been told lies about the association with Amway, the potential for success, and the penetration of MLM into the distribution of product in the marketplace. I can only assume that any further conversations with these people would produce the same results.
There is also the obvious question of why someone would work for an organisation like Network 21 and not be an "IBO". The pretence is that these networks are there to support the workers in the hive, but anyone working in the office would soon realise where the money is being made and the futility of coming in at the bottom of the pyramid. If it is so easy to make money as an "IBO" and the paradigm of distribution is changing so fast then it would be madness for anybody on the inside not to be a full participant. The fact that there is anybody with inside knowledge who doesn't take up the opportunity is credible evidence that the system is a scam.
You may wonder why I always put the abbreviation "IBO" inside quotation marks. It is because the vast majority of participants in multi-level market schemes are not independent, do not run businesses and have ownership of nothing.
I am a certified consultant and an authorised reseller for several software and hardware products. I can open a retail shop to sell these things, I can sell them on eBay, I can walk door-to-door around the neighbourhood, I can ask retailers to stock them and computer builders to include them as packages with their machines. Within limits, I am independent of the manufacturing and distribution companies. Could I do any of these things with Amway products? The taxation authorities recognise my business as a business and allow me to claim business expenses as deductions, but they have explicitly stated that MLM activities are not businesses. Also, I am not expected to find and recruit competitors for my business. As for ownership, I can sell my client list at any time I like and there is nothing that anyone (except the clients) can do about it. At what level in the hierarchy can you sell your downline to someone else? If you can't sell it, you do not own it. The term "IBO" is just another lie put about by the confidence tricksters who exploit the dreams and trust of honest people.
Here's something showing why I dislike parasites like Network 21. The bastards are targeting school children and first-year university students. Still, I suppose a dollar is a dollar wherever you steal it from. My reply is in italics.
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:54:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Jie-Xing Teoh
Subject: Infomation regarding on Network 21
Hello,
First of all i would like to say that i have not very good english language in experssing my words. My background, I was born in Malaysia came over to Australia 2 years ago. Currently in Melbourne studying Year 12( i know i'm very young but please listen ) equivalent. I have never in my life written any emails of such to such a highly positioned person such as you. But please listen to what i have to say.
Your English is much better than my Malay or Chinese (which are non-existent) and you have nothing to apologise for.
Yesterday 29 March 2005, i was invited by a company called Network 21 to attend a presentation discussing who they are and what do they do and yada yada how can we earn money by inviting friends.
The first thing that comes in my mind was, didn't i saw something like this in the media before? about the ladder thing where the top of the ladder always profits and it gradually sucks as it goes down from the ladder.
The next thing was, i look beside me was sitting a guy, 1st year of his Buisness Degree. Everybody here seem so amatuer and young. What do these companies want from all the young guys?
They want people who might not have the experience to see that they are talking nonsense. It's the same reason that heroin dealers try to hook school children – because adults might be more wary of the promises. There is no difference between the morals of the people at the top of multi-level marketing organisations and the heads of criminal syndicates. All they care about is money.
After the presentation, the people who invited me to attend this thing started to talk to me saying "Do you understand what concept they are showing?" "If you have questions please ask" "Do you know that women there? She earns 30,000 a month from Passive income!" "WOw age of 26 retire! Thats how much they are earning" "Its about taking a step forward, the bigger the step the more you earn". I'm sorry if its very hard for me to go into further depth as i can't remember exactly what they said. They even had a meeting scheduled for me today after school to explain to me 1 on 1 what is Network 21 all about.
Note: – Why are they inviting young guys such as me to attend this? Aren't we too young and inexperience and our money comes from our parents to be listening to these kind of things? (i'm an international student btw, which means my fund to pay for my schooling comes from malaysia, my father)
As I said before, they rely on people not having enough experience. They don't care where the money comes from as long as it comes. They might even think that if your father can afford to pay for your schooling in Australia he might also give you a good allowance that they can steal by selling you tapes and getting you to go to meetings, which is where the diamonds make their money.
- I use the word investment, how much must we invest. They drift away from the question i'm asking into another topic.
They never tell you the truth – that it costs you money to be in their business.
- They never mentioned the usage of money to invest except for the 1 on 1 talk where i demanded how much will it be (that is the ONLY time mentioned about money)
- They seduce many people by emphasizing EARLY RETIREMENT, NO NEED TO WORK SINCE THE AGE OF 24, FREE TIME.
Why are they still working? Why doesn't Kerry Packer sell his magazines and television stations and join Network 21?
By the way, i would like to mention that Angie Somers is coming to have a talk on April 2nd in 388 Swanston Street, Melbourne. She is ranked the Double Diamond, one of the richest profitters from this Network 21 scheme.
If she is a Double Diamond then she is a very well-paid crook. Ask her to call me and convince me to join Network 21. Of course, I would embarrass her by asking to see her house and her tax records.
I cannot conclude 100% that Network 21 is Amway. But some of their sheets gave the website www.a2k.com.au which is the Amway website.
Network 21 is not Amway officially, but is an organisation set up to work with Amway. If you ask them about Amway they deny any connection. They lie. The only products they sell are from the Amway catalogue.
Finnaly, if you recive this email and read it, please reply to me. I am very concerned about this issue because they have been asking me to invest in it and some of my friends are already caught in this, but blindly persuading more to join.
Resist and tell them to go away. They will tell you that you have been listening to a loser and they will insult you. Ignore them.
Good luck, and enjoy the rest of your time in Australia. I am sure you know this already, but we are not all crooks like the people at Network 21.
From: "OnsSes"
Subject: Your opinion
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:39:26 +1000
I was quite surprised to read what you have written on your website.
On behalf of all the other honourable people in Network 21, we apologise for the misconceptions you have been subjected to and for the misinformation you have received.
As part of Network 21 we have never denied our affiliation with Amway – we are proud to acknowledge Amway as our supply company and the others as partner stores. Clearly you have still not understood that it is all about increasing Amway's volume and for your effort you are rewarded (In other words – we all act as 'representatives' for Amway and by building a network we increase our group and Amway's turnover). It is a very simple and effective system when you understand it. Yes – and the person that works the hardest receives most money – not the person at the "top". The products are fantastic and the research and development Amway invests in is second to none.
(Also: We are not employees of Amway as you state – and yes – you can sell your business)
In Network 21 – an information and training organisation we are proud to be affiliated with – we always say "the most expensive advice you will get is free advice from ill informed people". Network 21 is truly a "people helping people" business – however, we are all human and we all make mistakes. When I read your comments, I am astounded that you have so many misconceived ideas and that you get away with them – also influencing others not to investigate for themselves and therefore depriving them of a genuine opportunity. When you lightly make demeaning comments about a person like Angie Somers that has worked very hard to be where she enjoys the fruit of her labour today (although she is still putting in time and effort), I wonder how you would feel if someone just broke down your efforts in things that you value. (Just so that you know: We are not in Angie Somers' line of sponsorship, we just acknowledge her for what she has achieved. She is a clear teacher and we value her input and dedication.)
Maybe you should take the time to research on your own. You are obviously a well-educated person and owe it to yourself to move past a few people that did not have the ability to handle your questions and under-estimated your intellect. You are invited to do worthwhile research on Amway's site, as well as others listed below – most of which we have exclusive distribution rights to.
May you grant others the success they dream about and realise not everyone is blessed with the same talent and perseverance you have.
We wish you success in you chosen field! Thea
<snip addresses and web sites for various Amway product lines, including the ridiculous Magnabloc magnetic products scam>
Schalk & Thea van Heerden
Here's a conversation going nowhere.
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:08:44 +0530
From: shishir k
Subject: Amway-N21
Hi
Looking at the matter posted on your site... i guess.. u must be a person who has built humungous Amway business or must be the founder of Network 21... Right?
Shishir
I'm sorry, but having morals, ethical standards and a conscience prevents me from being either.
Or, as Richard Nixon said: "I am not a crook"
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:43:21 +0530
From: shishir k
Subject: Re: Amway-N21
Ohhhh...
I thought you are the person who "walks the talk"... and sharing the info based on your own experience ...! If you stick to .... "morals, ethical standards and a conscience" ... then I guess... you should build this business and then share your wisdom on the business... coz.. then whatever you write.. will be MORAL-Coz, you are talking from your own experience, ETHICAL- Coz... you have done it... and thats why preaching what you have done, and CONSCIENCE – Give me a break -having not built the business... whatever you are writing, should eat you conscience! Great writing.. and enjoy reading your own stuff!! Regards
I thought about asking Shishir whether jumping off bridges or drinking sulphuric acid could be harmful or if each person had to find out for himself, but I felt that the point would not get across.
From: "Elba"
Subject: network 21
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:18:57 +1000
Forget the sour grapes. Not everyone succeeds in life & possibly neither did you. Just get over it & cut out the sour grapes stuff.
Do you have a point?
From: "Insider"
Subject: Network 21
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 04:00:53 +0100
Hi there,
I came across your comments on Network 21. I've worked with both Amway and Network 21 for several years, both in Australia and other countries. Most of what I read on your site indicates you truly don't understand how the Amway opportunity works or how Network 21 works with it.
Firstly, I'd like to address the issue of the relationship between N21 and Amway and IBOs. For an IBO, both Network 21 and Amway are suppliers. An IBO is neither an employee of Amway or Network 21. The IBO<->Amway link is obviously stronger than a normal product supplier, it is more like a franchising agreement. Any IBO denying a link with Amway is obviously being dishonest, and in my experience, as stated by your other correspondent, Network 21 does not condone or teach that. We work very closely with Amway.
You state on your site -
"My experience with their distributors is that they turn up for the plan showing with a professional salesman from Network 21 who runs the presentation"
This shows a complete lack of understanding of how we operate. Network 21 has no "professional salesmen". Anyone running the presentation is just a "distributor" like anyone else there, just likely one with more success and experience. It would be very very very unusual to have any Network 21 employee at anything except the very major functions. Certainly not at a plan showing.
You continue ...
"Every Amway "IBO" (or Network 21 salesperson denying the Amway connection) who has ever shown me the plan has told me that it is a simple matter to sign up five people in a month"
I find this difficult to believe. Could you elaborate on how many "Every Amway IBO" is? For most people it is NOT simple to sign up 5 people a month. Network 21 teaches as a *goal* to sponsor TWO people a month. Regarding your mathematical extrapolations, well, they are meaningless. First of all, humans being humans, only about 1 in 5 who register as IBOs ever actually do anything serious towards building the business. And very few of those consistently sponsor even those two people a month. When I first joined I did a spreadsheet factoring in known statistics on plan-showing rates, sponsoring rates, renewal rates etc etc and came up with numerous models where "saturation" as you define it never occurs.
Later on I realised this wasn't even a valid exercise, as our goal isn't to sponsor people. Our goal is to build sales volume, and sponsoring others is simply a strategy to do that. These strategies change and modify over time. Sometimes it's more effective to focus on individual IBOs generating more volume through retailing, other times it's more effective to sponsor more people who do less volume. It's a business, and as such strategies need to change over time.
Some further comments on your page -
*************************** "I must say that while I have long observed immorality among big pins and pyramid operators"
I'd appreciate it if you could elucidate upon this as it relates to Network 21? There are undoubtedly many negative Amway-related stories on the internet, but in my research they seem to be almost exclusively related to one particular organisation that works with Amway. Your page is the closest thing I've found reporting any problems with Network 21's operations. Some more information to back up your claims would be appreciated.
*************************** "There is also the obvious question of why someone would work for an organisation like Network 21 and not be an "IBO"
And there is an obvious answer. Not everybody wants to be an IBO. It's an opportunity for anyone, not everyone. Having said that, I am aware of people who have resigned from Amway and/or Network 21 in order to become IBOs. One of them is my upline.
*************************** "The taxation authorities recognise my business as a business and allow me to claim business expenses as deductions, but they have explicitly stated that MLM activities are not businesses."
This is completely false. In fact the Australian Tax Office has fairly explicit guidelines on this regarding Amway. You can read them at http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/content.asp?doc=/content/Amway.htm&pag e=1#H1
*************************** "I am not expected to find and recruit competitors for my business"
This is further evidence of your misunderstanding. If you were to open up your hypothetical computer store, and business went so well that you could open up further stores, perhaps through selling franchises, would that be "finding and recruiting competitors"? Of course not. You would be expanding your wholesale business. Same applies for Amway. Any sales you do directly are retail sales. Any sales to people you "recruit" are wholesale sales. Anyone I recruit or they recruit and so on is not a competitor, they are a *part* of my business.
*************************** "At what level in the hierarchy can you sell your downline to someone else? If you can't sell it, you do not own it"
This is theoretically possible at any level, but in practice it only occurs at levels above Platinum (in excess of around A$23,000 in turnover each month). And when I say "in practise" I mean it – this has happened numerous times.
*************************** "They never tell you the truth – that it costs you money to be in their business"
This is completely false. In what we call an "options" or "alternatives" meeting, where we sit down 1 on 1 with a prospect, we explictly go through the costs of starting and running this type of business. This can't be done in an "open" meeting as the costs will very considerably depending upon what the individual person wants to achieve out of their business and in what time frame.
*************************** "Why are they still working? Why doesn't Kerry Packer sell his magazines and television stations and join Network 21?"
Why would he? This is an opportunity, not the only opportunity. Don't be ridiculous. As for "why are they still working?" – perhaps because we have things we still want to achieve. If you enjoy it, why not keep on doing it? You have to do something with your life. The key is that people successful in this type of business have the choice.
*************************** "If she is a Double Diamond then she is a very well-paid crook. Ask her to call me and convince me to join Network 21. Of course, I would embarrass her by asking to see her house and her tax records."
Why don't you giver her a call and do just that? She's listed in the Whitepages – do a search for Amway and Drummoyne, NSW on www.whitepages.com.au.
Just a friendly word of caution. In my experience successful N21 people don't waste their time on sites like this, but I believe you just libeled her. Australian law isn't quite as friendly as some other countries when it comes to "free speech".
*************************** "Network 21 is not Amway officially, but is an organisation set up to work with Amway. If you ask them about Amway they deny any connection. They lie. The only products they sell are from the Amway catalogue."
This is incorrect. First of all we do not deny any connection. Anyone doing that is NOT operating according to what N21 teaches. Secondly, N21 does not sell *any* Amway products. Network 21 is a for-profit company that sells books, tapes, cds, and other business aids, and promotes and sells tickets to seminars and other events.
If you're talking about N21 affiliated IBOs, they promote Amway products and anything else they care to promote. As with virtually any agent/franchising type arrangement, IBOs are not supposed to promote competitive products, but that's not an unusual arrangement in the business world. I own a number of businesses apart from my Amway businesses and I "sell" products from all of them.
*************************** "<snip addresses and web sites for various Amway product lines, including the ridiculous Magnabloc magnetic products scam>"
Have you actually done any research into Magnabloc? I spent many years as a research scientist at a major university medical faculty. I have post-grad qualifications in health sciences and am currently considering pursuing my interests in the field with a PHD. I was honestly very skeptical when this product range came out. So I did the research. And I discovered that the developers of Magnabloc were at Vanderbilt University, one of the US's top medical universities. Furthermore they had a number of published peer-reviewed papers on magnetic pain therapy, including double-blind placebo studies and even in-vitro studies investigating proposed mechanisms. No doubt there are many magnetic therapy products on the market that are a complete scam, but these would not appear to be one of them.
I look forward to your response and seeing my comments posted on your site.
As everything in this rant has been answered elsewhere, I saw no need to reply. Also, anyone writing anonymously from a domain called "mlmfacts.net" would almost certainly be impervious to facts or logic.
From: "Silvia Veronica"
Subject: Amway and Network 21!!!!!!
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 03:16:06 +1100
Hi
This is really funny.........or should I say your comments sound really funny?
You sound like you know what you are talking about but in fact.........to be honest there are lots of holes in your arguments !!!!! Yes anyone is entitled for their own opinion but at least do some research before you post it on the net......for godsake it does reflect on your credibility!!! I am not sure if you have any..............just read below why I say that .
First of all your comment about Amway the pyramid scheme, just for your information, pyramid scheme is banned in Australia and Amway is registered in ATO [incase if you don't know and haven't done your research, it's Australian Taxation Office] Well..... would Amway be accepted by the registration board if their scheme is deemed to be illegal?
Second, your comment that Network 21 people deny any affiliation with Amway, which network 21 people have you spoken to? Coz as Thea van Herdeen wrote in the email[I don't know her], we network 21 people are proud to be affiliated with the Amway corporation, for the best product that they present in the market. If you wanna know if they pay? Yes they pay.......they do send the check and report with full detail and calculation of what they are paying me for.
I trully think that the one who does not have a clue of what ShiSir said in the email is noone but YOU. It is true that unless you have experience the system yourself and proof us that it's a scam, yes you have been unethical and I am not sure either if you have moral standard or conscience as you claim.......
In Network 21 we are all IBO [Independent Business Owner], although all IBO follow the same system, the way each IBO conduct their business may differed. I do not say that network 21 member are all fantastic, surely that there may be some of us who do not do it properly or perhaps whoever it was that you met couldn't relate to you. Get over it coz this happens in every industry too. There are some that do it well and some that don't. If that is the case then stop ridiculing the system coz the system is genuine and fantastic !!!!
For your information, the team where I'm at, we never promise people anything. We never say that it is an easy and quick way of making money, not in the seminar and certainly not when we do personal meeting either. But we all know if we put effort surely we'll get the result and the team always help us along the way !!!!!!!!!
SHan
From: "Gavin Mace"
Subject: MLM – Network 21
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:36:16 +1100
Dear Peter,
I am writing to you to discuss the opinions expressed on your website concerning Network 21 and your opinions in general. After seeing your website I think that you tend to contradict yourself quite regularly by making a website that will tell everyone about all the bad things in the world and acting as though you are the answer to all of their problems. In doing this, you are creating another problem, I think you could possibly even include yourself in The Millenium Project. You are robbing people of the opportunity to make a decision themselves and simply filling their heads with negative rubbish.
You information is very biased and seems to be an attempt to degrade others who have different opinions while trying to feel good about yourself by putting others done. If you are talking about influences on young people in the case of that email from the foreign student, then you may remember a kindergarten rule "No Putdowns". I am not questioning you as a person, nor am I putting you down in regard to your employment, I solely do not agree with your opinions and don't believe you are giving an accurate account to viewers of this website. Infact, one of my best friends is very much the same as you in his way of thinking, it does not offend me.
I think it is wrong that you speak of people involved in Network 21 or Amway like they are the scum of the universe and their morals and ethics are far inferior to those of yourself. You say that people who try and recruit when building a Network 21 business are only interested in the money side of things and therefore are trying to scam you. If you looked at both sides of the coin, you would see that this is how all business operates, if it doesn't then the business owner is quite stupid infact. If you have a boss, then he will employ you because he thinks that you will increase his profits by doing a certain job for him, if you don't achieve this for the boss, he will fire you. The aim of every business is to increase their profits, by doing so other people will always make money, but not as much as their boss (or person above them).
You also spoke of people getting discounts on overpriced products so they are lead to believe they get it cheap at wholesale. Just a quick bit of background on myself, I am currently in the process of finishing school and weighing up whether to join Network 21 or get a job at a retail store next year. This retail store I bought an accessory from about two years ago now for about $210. I later found out that the wholesale price that the business had purchased this for was $51. Most Network 21 products are perhaps a tad expensive yes. The difference between wholesale and retail price for Amway is perhaps about 20% roughly on average, maybe abit less. This store charged me more than 400% ontop of what the item was at wholesale. The guy who owns the store is a great bloke, I am not questioning that, we are good friends. However, every time I go into the store to buy something, he will drop whatever he is doing, tell his crappy sales staff to go away and he will talk talk talk to me all day... while i'm in his store. No he doesn't talk to me outside of the store, nor does he really care about what im doing. He wants to sell me something and make a profit. If he was to hire me to work in his store, it would be to make a profit from me increasing his sales a certain amount. If I was not any good at it, he would fire me and rightly so. If I was to work extra hard for him and increase his profits, then I might get a pay rise... and rightly so. This is the way that business works. You say that people at the top of the pyramid are the ones that make all the money. This is the same for all other businesses, I saw on Today Tonight a short time ago (I think you may want to marry that presenter, her narrow minded opinions are similar to those of yourself) that all major business board members or whatever they were made so many millions each year and were supposed to be con artists. I take my hat off to these people, they are very good.
I think it is also good from the people at Network 21 that they generally do focus most of their attention on how much money they are going to make. I find generally that most people do want to help others, however they cannot do so without first helping themselves (goes without saying really). My question is that is it more immoral to become, for example, a doctor, if your life long dream is to help others and be a nice person. Yes, they do help others in a health sense, but then they cause them a whole lot of stress by hiring a receptionist to post them out a big medical bill. In my opinion, this is an even playing field. The sick patient is helping the doctor as much as the doctor is helping the sick patient. They are there to make money from sick people! If I was to be so narrow minded you could mislead people to believe that doctors are scum, however, they are not. However, does a doctor give you a full money back guarentee if you don't achieve alot from a visit? NO WAY! I have been screwed over many times from doctors giving me false information and then costing me lots of money on various other tests and medicines etc... However, in general I think that doctors are very knowledgable and do try their best to make things better.
I do not think that Amway products can really be attacked as many of them are good quality. I have seen many doctors recommend the healthy products which they provide. However at the same time, they don't neglect the value of other parts to being healthy such as eat fruit and vegetables. This is doing what is right for the customer.
I think that those involved in Network 21 should not be generalised into your incorrect category of them all being scum and having no morals or ethics. They are infact very different to this and I think it is very inappropriate for you to say such things. Many people in Network 21 use this business because it is an easy source of money. You cannot blame people for not wanting to make their work a large part of their life. These people see that they don't want to retire poor at the age of 65 and have done nothing they enjoy with their life. As is the saying, 'The best things in life are free'.... however, in order for this to happen, we do need to take care of the bills. Not saying that all people in Network 21 are like this, they are not, a large portion however simply want to be able to forget about their own incomes and careers so they can focus on more important things. Family, children, enjoying life, travelling and helping others are the main goals that I see when listening to the majority of people in the business. I don't think it is appropriate to dislike people for trying to fulfill their dreams.
I am sure you have heard all of this before from people talking about how they hate schools for not teaching kids about money, or they hate universities for telling kids that they need to go there. The schools promote uni and then that cycle goes over and over, then at the end of uni you are smart in your chosen area, but unless you have some financial backing, your in debt. Does 15 years of school and 4 years of uni earn you money? HELL NO! they do claim to however, in most of the uni advertising I have seen (yes I am very capable of doing university, I do not want to though as I don't consider it to be enjoyable. All of my friends agree, but for some reason, usually parental pressure, many are going either next year or the year after. I don't understand why people would do things they don't enjoy)
When I leave school, I will most likely never use any of my $100,000+ education for career purposes. I will however use my tiny little $10,000 (it's not really that big, but if we go by your estimation, I will even give you a few thousand dollars lee-way) education from N21 which teaches me how to make money. All people want money, lets be honest, very few care about what they do with their job. It is what we do outside of our job, things with our family and lives that I consider to be most important (really it's a no-brainer)
I think this email is now well and truly long enough. I would very much like this letter to be posted on your website and I would like to hear a response from you so that you can teach me more (you seem to be very knowledgable) about why your beliefs are so and also so we can continue to discuss. I am interested in your opinion and will look forward to hearing it.
Yours Sincerely,
Gavin Mace
There must be a script out there somewhere.
Amway in UK (16/6/2007)
I have sad news. Amway in the UK have been ordered to stop recruiting until they can clean up the organisation and demonstrate that the real business is selling soap powder, not recruiting more suckers and selling them tapes and meetings. Everyone knows that J.O.B. means "Just Over Broke", but with any sort of luck it will now mean "Just Out of Business" for at least one Amway pyramid. Read the good news here in Amway's own convoluted words. And notice how it mentions Network 21? Every time I have had someone from Network 21 show me the plan, he has denied any connection with Amway other than to say something like "Amway is one of our suppliers". But I always knew they were lying.
Subject: Amway...Ntwrk 21
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:33:42 +0200
From: "Paola Young"
Just reading through the commentary of some sceptics really irritates me. There is no promise from Amway or Ntwrk 21 that you'll get rich quick. In fact they emphasise HARD WORK. It is also made very clear that it is a form of passive income. How big you go or get is up to you; your vision, skills and what you put in results in what you get out. You make people aware of quality products that have a 90 day guarantee. Someone decide to purchase a product and the product speaks for itself. A one time customer will land up becoming a regular because of the results of the product. The money that would have been spent on advertising is put in research instead. Direct selling reduces the retail price as middleman etc is cut out. 30% of a sale goes into your pocket or 25, 10 etc. You decide on what % of profit you want. You are not allowed however to exceed 30%. Every product has a point value, if your sales are good and you collect many points, a commission is paid out to you. If you add to the team as a group on business volume that you move you get paid a further commission. If you get to a point that you expand & create your own team naturally your commission increases. It is not a pyramid scheme because in simple terms, you don't ever sit back and let "your little ants" work for you. You don't get to take their profit in any way. All that happens is a group incentive & a larger commission on a larger group. Some people run with the motivation & vision they see available to them through this opportunity and others are content with a bit of pocket money here & there. Big things can happen if you have the incentive and work for it. All the bitching & griping! Honestly what for?! Yes, we live in a paranoid world with unrealistic expectations, wanting the easy way out. Please people get your facts STRAIGHT. Work = results. Mouthing off = crap that some people might slip in. Thanks. P.S. I am not a crook, hustler or con-artist…just a herd worker who enjoys making a little extra when the payslip of my regular job doesn't meet my needs.
A compliment (4/8/2007)
I have found myself listed with some very illustrious names. The location is a blog devoted to extolling the virtues of Amway and defending the right of people to lie to others about how much money can be made as a brick in a pyramid. Apparently my sin was to criticise multi-level marketing and the Amway motivational organisations without ever being a victim myself. (On this basis, the only crimes I can offer a credible opinion about are mugging, car theft and corporate fraud because I have experienced them personally. Anything I say about rape, murder, armed robbery or slave trafficking has no value. For some reason analogies like this don't go down too well with true believers, and even less well with those who pretend to believe in order to deceive others.)
Here is the list of evil anti-MLM campaigners:
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It is interesting to note that two people in the list, Steve Hassan and Rick Ross, are actually anti-cult campaigners. I guess that the Amway Motivational Organisations feel their ears burning when anyone mentions cults. The blogger (who is of course anonymous, going by the name "IBOFightBack" on his blog and "insider" in at least one other place) has annotated some of the names, and this is what he had to say about me:
Runs the "ratbags" site in Australia. I wrote to him a year or so ago pointing out, with independent sources, where a number of his claims were flat out wrong. His only response? he'd already addressed the issues (he hadn't) and that I was obviously impervious to logic since I was writing from a domain mlmfacts.com (which I wasn't – it was mlmfacts.net)
Firstly, I am appalled at the egregious error I committed of typing "com" instead of "net". I have, of course, rushed to correct this dreadful departure from the truth, and I apologise to all my visitors for carrying such deceptive material on this site for more than a fraction of a nanosecond.
The second thing I noticed was his claim that I hadn't previously addressed the issues to which he was responding. This raises the interesting philosophical point of how he had anything to respond to, unless he thinks that simply denying something removes all previous mention of it and therefore it is necessary to start again. He would not be alone in this opinion, as anyone who has ever tried to debate a creationist will know.
I went back and had a look at his email, and, yes, it was full of the same old rubbish that I had heard many times before, but one thing caught my eye that I hadn't noticed the first time around. I had mentioned that every time anyone from Network 21 had shown me the plan they had denied any Amway connection except for some drivel like "Amway is one of our suppliers". Here is what an "insider" had to say:
N21 does not sell *any* Amway products. Network 21 is a for-profit company that sells books, tapes, cds, and other business aids, and promotes and sells tickets to seminars and other events.
So there you have it, folks. An admission from the inside that Network 21 exists not to sell Amway products, not to support "Independent Business Owners" in their quest for wealth, not to help IBOs to build their downlines and spread the wealth creation, but to sell tools and seminars. And it does it for a profit, too (so there goes "we provide these services at cost to help you build your business" and other lies). This is probably the only occasion on which I have ever detected an iota of honesty in anyone involved with one of these organisations. Perhaps he didn't understand what he was writing. Perhaps he thought that I was the sort of person who would believe what he said because he said it in a nice voice. He was wrong.
(In 1982, Amway founder Rich de Vos described making money from tools and seminars as "illegal". Listen to Rich's edict, something which he said but never enforced. But as lying was his business model, why would anyone expect him to stop illegal activity?
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